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Wm. Bates | all galleries >> Picture a Day for a Year of Wanda Gallery >> Click here for Wanda in November Gallery > Wanda11_08_04.jpg
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08-NOV-2004

Wanda11_08_04.jpg

We're still trying to make up for a few bad photos from last week. I'm also feeling in a black and white mood. I don't know about others but for me black and white photography really helps me refine my lighting. I think it just because you really are dealing with light and shadow values.

Canon EOS 20D ,Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM
1/125s f/5.6 at 43.0mm iso200 with Flash full exif

other sizes: small medium large original auto
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Wm. Bates20-Apr-2005 13:40
Posing for this one was not easy for Me. I had a hard time getting comfortable. Bill reminded Me that he had once read that if the pose if "comfortable" for the model, then it won't look good in the image. I have to say that is true! Anytime I feel comfy in a pose, the image makes Me look 40 pounds heavier than I really am. Evil camera lens!

Wanda
Lou Giroud16-Nov-2004 22:04
I remove the rework today, Bill, since I need my space for other things. On the other side, the fact that you removed the link to my picture and when I see this picture :http://www.pbase.com/slowpokebill/image/36408976
It seems that what I said was not that false and what you show there is harmonizing with what I related here. Thanks for the debate, it makes pleasure to talk about photos and to see that in some points of view we defer in open talk but not in hidden mind.
Guest 13-Nov-2004 00:09
Another beautiful b&w, and I like the high contrast - the deep shadows add drama, and accentuate the form of your subject (and who couldn't be happy about that?)
Wm. Bates11-Nov-2004 04:47
Sorry Lou I like the higher contrast of the original better. I wanted the deep shadows in the mid section and just a hint of rim light along Wanda's left side. The goal was to just have a leading line for your eye to follow as it would be naturally drawn to the breast and face. I agree the light on the right arm maybe just a tad over and when printing I might burn it down just a little. The lower right leg was burned down on purpose It just adds a distraction.

Now on to your reworked version. I kind of think you muddied up the photo. The background went from nice deep silky black to a gray which you added noise to. If I did that and printed at my normal 12x18" print size on the Epson Smooth fine art paper it would look like hell. This printed with the texture of the paper I use will just glow and that was the goal. Your's lacks the pop I like. Sorry I don't like it lighter. Something I'm guessing here looking at your version is you may very well need to calibrate your monitor. I calibrate my CRT every two weeks with a Spyder so I can push the edge with light and dark values. If your gamma is a tad off then you may have found the shadows blocked up and the highlights may look blown.

Thanks for the input it is very much appreciated. On this one I think we just have a different vision. With that said, I would appreciate it if you would take the reworked version down latter today when you can after we all see it. Thanks again :^)
Lou Giroud09-Nov-2004 16:38
So, in advance with a few days, Happy Birthday Bill. On the other side, don't worry. I started the digital Stuff only this year for good and when I bought the Nikon once in April, I had to read the book first to use Photoshop.
I still work a lot of argentic, despite of the fact that with every day where I go further in digital, I take more distance to it. I made some 6000 over shots with the Nikon since April and I must say that the digital stuff makes me a lot of pleasure, also in the view that the cameras get better every day and I can do some rework at my work place. Taking a laboratory over there is somewhat difficult.
So, keep on truckin' young man and don't mind, you do not look that bad at all for that age, have a look and at all your class maids and you'll find out. :-)
Wm. Bates09-Nov-2004 16:30
Lou...you just started a little earlier. I 'll see my fiftieth birthday just two days before this project ends. I started taking pictures in the late 60s. Boy some of that stuff was horrible.
Lou Giroud09-Nov-2004 16:25
I am just going towards 55 and made my first steps in photography in 1959 with a simple click camera. I developed my first B&W roll at the age of 13 and had my first Hasselblad at the age of 17. So far about my age. It is not a privilege of Wanda to look still good Bill despite of the fact that people will prefer to see her then me. :-)
Wm. Bates09-Nov-2004 16:21
Lou...43 years. From your pictures you look to young to have been taking pictures that long. You have me beat by eight or ten years and I don't look that good. Must be the whisky, woman and fast living I do. I really appreciate the input and critique. I find it much more valuable than the standard "great picture" comments.
Wm. Bates09-Nov-2004 16:01
I think I need to toss something that may reflect on how this photo is perceived. When I print my black and white photos I like something looks more like Platinum/palladium processing than the more normal silver processing. I like the much richer soft luminescences plus the wider range and contrast of the platinum/palladium prints. That is why for the black and white prints I use the Epson ultra smooth or Moab Paper companies Entrada Natural paper. These papers are 100% cotton acid free rag with no optical brighteners which is pretty close to what you use when doing the chemical processing. They are a nice slightly warm tone.

When I post to the web my last step in my processing before resizing and sharpening is to add a little warm filter to make them a warm and not a neutral gray. This makes the web version look very close to the printed version. I will say the mounted and framed versions look much better than the web version. This one will make it to a wall somewhere.
Lou Giroud09-Nov-2004 15:55
I will agree with you if your intention was indeed to have a hard contrast in this one, a contrast that returns a simple white and black colour. This is indeed a digital pure form of black & white picture. Now working Black & White has as a principle to respect the wide palette of grey shades as well and get as much deepth and contrast variations out of it. Saying that you searched softness in this one is largely overdriven since the highlights are partialy burned completely and a lot of grey shades and details, the lace pattern in Wanda's panty for instance are not visible at all. This might now be a question of taste and speaking about printing, you know yourself by experience that between what one sees on the screen and what comes out of the printer, there are a lot of differences.
One normaly had to match the screen to every shot on wants to print. I use the spyder as well on TFT, I look those pictures on CRT's as well on different places, I use 4 TFT's on different machines here as well as 2 CRT's.
It is a question for me of making a B&W with argentic touch and look or a B&W in Digital.
Between a digital B&W and an argentic there are world of difference. I also mentionned that I worked on the reduced size picture I downed and not on the basic RAW which makes this rework more difficult.
Just now to say to Mr Walker, that Bill opened here a field of discussion and if you have read what he wrote, you will find this out. So, if anyone's opinion is not wanted, a thing that seem to belong to the invisible rules of Pbase, I ask kindly to mention this as well.
Just to add that I did not say that this is wrong, I just said what I found out and what I would do different and Bill gave his honnest opinion to this and I respect this and accept his opinion. Note in this context that wether Bill or me are to be considered as the perfect photographers and I consider myself that after 43 years of photography I still have to learn and share aknowledges.
Darrel Booth09-Nov-2004 15:31
Bill, I must agree with you regarding Lou's rework of the image. I feel yours is much better and his is too flat.

Darrel
Guest 09-Nov-2004 14:13
Lou, how can you look at someone else's photo and tell them they did it wrong? Perhaps this photo accurately represents what Bill was going for. Maybe it's just the look he was wanting. I'm sure some people will like your version better, but personally I like Bill's original better. It's all about what you are trying to say with the photo and you can't judge his photography based on what you think the vision should be.
Guest 09-Nov-2004 12:33
Vey fine iamge, fantastic light and composition
Lou Giroud09-Nov-2004 10:54
I have done body and light in my youth and I have much experience in this kind of shots.
Your shot here is good in pose but not good in repartition of the light over the entire surface of the picture. The light on shoulder on left side is too bright and the lower left side, that should show some details of the chair as well as the other leg is missing totaly.
So, a small wide spreading spot in the front with adjustable intensity would help here to show some of this part. If you shoot a body, in no circumstance there should not be any part of it lost in the dark and there is the challenge to master now, Bill. A dark portion should allways be surrounded by a limiting line and here the right leg of Wanda is not present enough between the knee and the foot.
You can improve this in PS by saving this picture individualy in different Eposition levels and finding the grayshades you need in every portion of the picture individualy on each of this saved shots. By copying and pasting and using the eraser you can then rework all the portions of the picture until every part shows the levels you need for a good final. The experience will show that a good colour shot is not obviously making a good B&W, on the other side, the gray shades in a B&W is managed by each of the 3 basic colours as well and changing each of them gives a lot more playing ground in B&W then in colour anyway. Also, when finished the work, always review the levels in PS on a B&W and adjust them. On the end, never forget to add some grain with grain factory to give the picture this feeling of argentic shot, a thing that is specialy important if you make a print of it.
It is a good experience to start by now what the older people have done at start before digital appeared.
As I know you, you will master this in a short time as well. I'll look further on this B&W experiments.
Guest 09-Nov-2004 10:38
Excellent lighting!
Larry Ahern09-Nov-2004 10:12
I don't often leave comments but I must say I have never seen you post a bad shot.
Guest 09-Nov-2004 07:42
Beautifully lit. Gorgeous image.