Card game, Shanghai, China, 2004 by Phil Douglis

Phil Douglis | all galleries >> Galleries >> Gallery Three: Expressing human values > Card game, Shanghai, China, 2004


14-JUN-2004

Card game, Shanghai, China, 2004

Gambling and card games are old Shanghai traditions. A walk through the old section of the city reveals that little has changed in this regard. It may be raining, but that doesn't stop these men from enjoying the betting. Competition, risk, and friendship are all part of this game, and all are human values. The many small details that make up this photograph, including the bicycles, stools, laundry, and the fellow having a smoke behind tree provide context that is also rooted in human values we can relate to.

Leica Digilux 2
1/30s f/2.4 at 22.5mm iso100 full exif

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Phil Douglis		01-May-2008 18:28
You make a good point, Han. In the west, people go to bars for social contact and relaxation. In China, they gather together on the street for a game of cards. Thank you for noting the honesty of my imagery. I do not make a "production" out of my pictures by staging, posing, or manipulation. I try to let the facts of the matter speak for themselves.

Guest		01-May-2008 14:41
it's a honest picture of commoner's relaxed daily life. gambling with friends and strangers in china = bar culture in west

Phil Douglis		31-Jul-2006 00:25
Thanks, Dylan, for coming back and reading my explanation. I appreciate it, and hope you got something out of the exercise.

Dylan Cowan		30-Jul-2006 20:33
I see your point Phil, the tree and column are well positioned players in the composition, and to lose or move one would offset that ballance in the forground. To that end, I like the smoker being to the left of the tree along with the bike leaning on the right of the column. I think I can better see where you were comming from, thanks Phil.

Dylan Cowan		30-Jul-2006 20:31
I see your point Phil, the tree and column are well positioned players in the composition, and to lose or move one would offset that ballance in the forground. To that end, I like the smoker being to the left of the tree along with the bike leaning on the right of the column. I think I can better see where you were comming from, thanks Phil.

Phil Douglis		30-Jul-2006 20:00
One more observation, Dylan. Note how I've composed this image around repeating verticals. The tree and post on the left, and the column on the right are both powerful verticals that rhythmically repeat the other implied verticals in the middle of the image -- the sign in the window, the man in the door, the shirt hanging over the card player, the gate to the alley and the alley itself. If were to remove either side of the picture, the effect of these verticals would diminish.

Phil Douglis		30-Jul-2006 19:49
Thanks, Dylan, for adding another point of view to this image. I am delighted with all of these comments. Far from taking a beating, I am always thrilled when one of my images draws such a varied cross section of reactions, responses and ideas. I know what I wanted to say here -- that's why I made this image the way I did, and why I posted it here in my Human Values gallery. And that is the bottom line for me: it simply helps me teach the importance of human values in expressive travel photography. I did not want to express intimacy in this shot. (I cover that elsewhere in this gallery.) As you say, this is street photography, and I wanted various human components of life on the street to fill its frame. The alley, column and bikes that bother you add context to balance the context the smoker adds on the other side. If I was to take out either the smoker or the alley on the opposite side, the card game would not be as enveloped by street life as it is with them. That is why both are there. As you can see from the ten or so comments that preceded yours, others might have made their own images of this scene quite differently. That does not mean that their images would be better or worse than mine -- only different. There were many different stories to be told on this block at this moment, and this is the one that I tell to make some important points about the nature of human values in expressive travel photography. Thanks for adding your own views to the discussion, Dylan.

Dylan Cowan		30-Jul-2006 19:07
Phil, you've taken quit a beating over the hidden smoker. I think his presence places the game more on the street and lessens intimacy of the setting - it hints to the surroundings. The alley, column, and bicycles on the right bother me. As far as I can tell they serve the same purpose as the smoker, illustrating that the game is taking place on the street, but they offset the composition so that the hidden smoker seems distracting at the edge of the photo and the card game is pushed to the side. Obviously, you don’t think your story would be the same with out them both, but to me it looks like you could do without one or the other. Ordinarily I wouldn't be so picky, but after reading the discussion on the photo thus far I took a closer look and felt the need to voice my opinion. I do like the exposure; the details in alley and shadow are very nice. I see old and young gathered on front porches playing dominos and cards in certain neighborhoods around Dallas, the contrast to me is that these folks are playing in the door, literally, no one can get in or out, and it appears to be a business. Looks to me like the two men inside are hosting a game for money and might need the extra seconds a table in the way can provide in the event they need to get away. Having never been, I know very little about the streets of Shanghai, so this is a fascinating insight - regardless of the crop... just ribbing you Phil!

Phil Douglis		29-Jul-2006 19:48
We agree to disagree on this one, Emi. If I had cropped out the man behind the tree, it no longer would be same story -- the one I wanted to tell.

Guest		29-Jul-2006 17:19
I did read as I always do, and I do think that smoking man and this picture are expressive, just I think the people playing cards are the main images and removing the smoking man will improve in composition, thus this picture will be both meaningful and better in composition. Emi

Phil Douglis		29-Jul-2006 05:58
This image is expressive in my view BECAUSE of the man hiding the behind the tree. Read Benchang's comment, and my response to him, Emi, and you will see why I feel this image is expressive. As you can see, some people would take him out. I gave my reasons for keeping him in. The very fact that this image is so unconventional in its structure has stimulated the imaginations of many, which, by definition, makes this an expressive and not a descriptive image. It is not reportage. It is interpretation and expression.

Guest		29-Jul-2006 03:03
Just want to correct a typo in the 2 line of my 1st paragraph - " ....otherwise, it WOULDN'T even exist in this world...."

Guest		29-Jul-2006 03:01
I understand why you included the smoking man and the tree in this image Phil, yes, they do add context to this image. Actually everything in this world has its meaning, otherwise it would even exist in this world, but we cannot get everything in a picture. Yes, I agree that meaning and context comes first in photos, but doesnt mean the visual form of images is not important. Its best to get both in our photos, otherwise, no matter how meaningful our pictures are, people wont be interested in looking at them. This picture has already captured serval means by the main subjects( the people who were sitting and playing cards), so to me , better remove the man and the tree so to make the image better in visual form. Moreover, like you always say, less is usually more. If there is too much in our photo, even those elements have meanings, but usually make our pictures turn into a more descriptive images than expressive. Just like those pictures we see everyday in newspaper, the reporter try to give us more details of the issues by taking more details of the images related to the issue. That is reporting, not expressing. Emi

Phil Douglis		26-Mar-2005 05:38
Thanks, Benchang, for adding your voice to the debate over the fellow on the left of this picture. He has been cast out and left in so many times, Is he a distracting fragment or an essential part of the story here? As you can see, there are many interpretations, which, of course, I anticipated when I decided to leave him in. I am delighted to learn you side with me here, Benchang. Vera, who is Chinese, and Flip, an American, wants him out. Benchang, who is Chinese wants him in. Clara, a Spaniard, wants him out, an Mikel, also a Spaniard want him in. Each has their own reasons, and we can learn from all of them. You and I have come to the same conclusion. He adds important context to this picture as an outsider among his own kinfolk.

Benchang Tang		25-Mar-2005 10:32
A great picture and more interesting in reading the discussion that follows the picture. Thank you all! The theme of the picture is really "Old Shanghai, China" and I would go even farther as to title it this way, if you allow, Phil. " A slice of life"( thanks to Phil for this wording) is what propabally first prompted Phil to take this picture, as I venture to imagine. This is very truthful to what we found ourselves in our childhood and is now disappearing since a bigger part of the city people live in closed condoes. So IMO the the smoker half obscured is essential to the picture. As for the smoker standing away from the rest I am trying to give some answers. People know it's not good to health and smoking in the close front of others is not appropriate in China, especially in the cities, and cigarette sharing has been common in China but is being found odd a little and maybe the smoker is embarrassed as to share with the others or not as maybe he is not sure if those are smokers as well or he wants to save a few cigarettes. The younger generation is always the winner, se he is so relaxed!

Phil Douglis		30-Dec-2004 05:04
I am delighted this image has provoked such an imaginative chain of thought, Mikel. I was merely expressing the human values embodied in a friendly game of cards. You have brought the psychological basis for betting and competing to the table as well. Which is fine, if that is what intrigues you. And yes, I would agree that greed and competitiveness are human values as well, if you see such things expressed in this image. While I feel some degree of risk and competition going on here, I had no intention of putting greed as a motivation into the mix -- I saw these people as friends and neighbor playing a friendly and spirited game. I did not any sign of self-glorification here, or anybody discrediting others. You are reading a lot of yourself into this image, Mikel, which is what I wanted you to do. And what you feel is what is there for you. Interesting also that you single out the guy hidden behind the tree as the only person here at peace with himself. I did not see him in that context at all. Yet I do consider him to be a critical part of my expression here. I see him as a sneaky smoker, an essential part of life in Old Shanghai. Yet both Filip and Vera wanted to crop him out of the picture because he was not a player and he was also partly obscured. To me, the partial abstraction of this man intensifies the furtiveness of his actions. And so it goes!

Guest		29-Dec-2004 12:52
though the only one that looks to have peace with him self is the hidden guy behind the tree, even him beeng half hidden makes him more absent of the game and if that is not enough, he is looking to the oposite side.

Guest		29-Dec-2004 12:50
In a certain way it seems familiar to mee with the old people in the bars here, relaxing, having a good time... all beeng destressed. Anyway, there is a a less destressing message to in this image and less nobel to my conception. On one hand the betting represents to me the angsiousity for having money as easy and fast as possible. That is a human value in many of us. and I believe that gambling is an other way to express greedeness if we go to the primary reasons for it though probably many people are not concious of it when they bet. On the other hand there is an other negative feature, competitivity, the neet for beeng better then the opponent too feel in the top of the world, I am sure that if we look to the basic reasons of the human necessity of having this feeleng of beeng the best in something is a reason of lack of autoestime and self insecurity though based in creating this lack of autoestime and insecurity to the rest that are arround you. I recognize that for me photography fills an important part of my autoestimation too, as example. But it is a personal inside feeleng (though I recognize that the market it's self makes it a competition too), but in a competition it is different you achieve autoestime by discrediting others or loose having hoped too have this glory over the others. Ofcourse in this case it is not evident further then a friendly game between friends and that is why it is not a war but it's nature is more agressive then it looks like at first hand.

Phil Douglis		05-Dec-2004 00:48
Yes, I do understand your motives, although that is the not way I would make my own pictures. One person's distraction can be another person's message. As long as you have substantive reasons for why you do what you do in your own images, I'll rest easily. And I promise to give you the reasoning behind my own photographic decisions as well. Fair enough?

Guest		04-Dec-2004 17:28
Then you understand that my picture of the preacher is with Mr Missing Arm. Discussion here:http://www.pbase.com/clara2409/image/2137279

Phil Douglis		04-Dec-2004 04:25
I agree with you entirely on this, Clara. What counts for me as relevant is indeed what makes me decide what is crap and what is not. Of course it is personal. That's what expressive photography is. It is not objective, or documentation. It is personal expression, how I feel about what I see, what I am a trying to say to you about what I see, and what I want you to think about what I see. And the rest is up to you as a viewer. You will make out of it whatever story you want. If you and Vera would have rather taken that sneaky smoker out, that's fine with me. But then it becomes your picture, or Vera's picture, and no longer mine.

Guest		03-Dec-2004 23:35
You bring to attention the subjective element in evaluating an image, which is always licit. Your understanding of the whole image can not be argued, it is always yours (of the artist / photographer). The tree/pillar and the mind smoking behind, to you, makes sense to the whole meaning that is relevant to you. The same scene, a group of -a table game- players in front a rustic shop can be contextualized in very different ways (any scene can be interpreted taking into account different elements of its context). So, what counts for you as relevant is what makes you decide what is crap and what not. It is very personal.

Phil Douglis		03-Dec-2004 21:10
Easy, Clara. I see context as something that adds meaning to the picture. I think this guy sneaking a smoke behind that pillar adds such meaning. (Vera, on the other hand, does not.) What I call "accidents" or "crap" in pictures is stuff that that just happened to be there, adding no meaning, and often distracting the viewer's eye from things that do have meaning. As for this your preference for the pillar only or smoker only, you are entitled to your wishes. But my picture has something to do with a guy hiding behind a pillar, so I need both. Fair enough?

Guest		03-Dec-2004 19:45
It makes me wonder how you differentiate 'context' from 'accidents' or 'crap'. The smoker disturbs me a little, because the wood pilar before him, so I don't like both as context, I'd prefer the pilar only or the smoker only. The players and the witness are the subject and the story is well photographied. You know I normally I'm tolerant of 'accidents'.

Phil Douglis		30-Nov-2004 21:37
Thanks, Vera, for your suggestion here. Filip made the same suggestion you did, and my response to you is the same as my response to him. That guy hiding behind the tree is part of my story. I saw him turn away from the game to sneak a smoke, and that is why I thought it appropriate to place him squarely behind a tree. It makes it look even sneakier. (I'm sure you are going to tell me that people in China who smoke are not yet considered the social pariahs they are elsewhere -- but as far as I am concerned, I wanted it to seem as if he has stepped away from the table because he did not want to bother the players with his smoke.) As I said to Filip, there are no rights or wrongs when it come to cropping a picture in the viewfinder or later in Photoshop. It all comes down to what the photographer, in this case myself, is trying to express. The smoker is essential context here, part of life in Old Shanghai as I saw it. That's why I kept him in.

Phil Douglis		30-Nov-2004 21:26
Glad you like this shot, Filip. It is one of my favorite images of Old Shanghai -- a nice slice of life. As for that man who is hiding behind the tree, Vera has a problem with him as well, but I deliberately included him. He is essential to my composition. The tree abstracts him so that he seems to be hiding. Why is hiding? Because he has turned his back on the game to sneak a smoke, that's why! He may not part of your story or Vera's for that matter, but he is part of mine. To crop or not to crop is a critical decision that photographers have to make, both in the frame, and later in Photoshop. They should crop their pictures to express the meaning they wish to convey. That's what I did here.

Guest		28-Nov-2004 11:04
Phil, I must say I am a little surprised when reading from your caption that the smoking man is considered to be among the small details that make up the photo -- like Filip, I'd rather him being cropped out of the image altogether. May I ask what function does he serve here? So he is the only person in the image that is not taking part in the card game (either as a player or as a spectator) -- is that the very reason why he is included here, to express the idea that someone couldn't care less what is taking place around him, perhaps because he is too preoccupied with the pursuit of his own definition of pleasure (smoking, in this man's case), or perhaps because what seems interesting & fun for one may be completely uninteresting for another? But I think it would express this idea much better if he were not obscured by the tree. Even better if he were sitting behind the shop window looking out (to the other direction away from where those card players are), seemingly waiting for customers with his full attention & anticipation. But I am fascinated by how the young one in their midst seems to be the most relaxed -- laying back and observing the whole game scenario, whereas the other three just concentrates on the cards in their own hands. Vera. :-)

Guest		22-Nov-2004 15:06
Excellent Shanghai street photo! I really like how you give a nice overview of the scene instead of zooming in on the players. This way, the world around them, gives context to the whole image. For me it's quite amazing how men in Shanghai can play chess all day, everyday. I wonder if they have jobs and families to support or if they are single. Will have to chat one of these guys up one day and maybe buy him a beer. I only wish you had cropped that men who is hiding behind the tree...he's a little unnecessary when taking in the entire composition.

Phil Douglis		12-Nov-2004 01:54
Another succinct synopsis from Nut.

nut		11-Nov-2004 22:12
Competition and Seniority.

Phil Douglis		16-Jul-2004 18:13
Thanks, Tim, for pointing the generational story in this image. Age is still highly respected in China. The older kibitzer may not only an authority figure -- he could also be regarded as a source for some handy tips as well!

Tim May		16-Jul-2004 17:23
There are two other aspects of human values that I find in this image - one is the age range of the men in this image - it is almost as if the younger man show the continuance of this tradition on into the next generation - and the other is the kibitzer in doorway - it is as if the older man while not playing is looking on to keep the youngsters in line.

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