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Brian Redman Intl. Challenge 2005

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Kim Terry		07-Apr-2008 20:01
It's been nearly 2 years since this catastrophe, and I still cannot believe what I saw that day. We reviewed the video this past weekend, and it still terrifies me. My husband has driven in this group for several years, and when I read the early comments about egos and cheaters, I just have to guess you haven't meet Trent Terry. As I still often look for other videos of this without finding any, I'm going to post what we have. Trent was the last one through unscathed, the black #77 Jaguar E-type. And, yes, he does race to win. It's called "driving" not "racing" otherwise. It may take me a little time to get this up. I'm aiming for youtube.com. I'll post links asap.

Jim Shanel		04-Dec-2007 00:57
Does anyone have a video? I thought I saw an a couple of frames on the speed channel (as part of a promo). Thanks Jim

Mike Stranger		17-Mar-2007 04:09
Thanks 123 adware

Mike Stranger		15-Mar-2007 05:09
God site. Thanks!

lhof njtwir		30-Jan-2007 04:24
fqesjpi bwnmtka vikdswb inaguto aoxnvzbwr axsbu csjihg

David Snow		29-Nov-2005 21:35
Well Ray... What can I say..??? (LOL) You knew better, Boy.. You may want to go back to Bonderant School again.. Your Brother-in-Law of 30 some years... Dave

Todd		19-Nov-2005 18:49
I raced at the VSCDA fall event at RA, and I can speak regarding the Group 6 race ....the Start was nice and slow..... very orderly. Just the way it should be. In my opinion, the BRIC incident was the "perfect storm" of which at least 3 things took place that contributed to the accident. 1)The Start was too fast. I came around corner 14 onto the front straight (going "pace lap" speed), and the front 7 rows were "on the gas" already. 2) Some cars were "out of line" (pun). 3) The Starter failed to give the Green Flag, probably due to his seeing the "out of line" cars. If even one (1) of these 3 situations doesn't happen....maybe no accident....at least not "the big one". I'm real happy nobody was seriously injured in it.

Guest		04-Nov-2005 17:32
Art Eastman has changed his tune a little bit in the latest issue of Vintage Motorsports. Now he lays some blame on the pole-sitters, saying they slowed down at the start, causing some check-ups. Art claims he reviewed a DVD with lots of in-car and exterior video. Where does one obtain one of these?

bossracer		20-Sep-2005 23:10
Well, I have stayed away for almost 6 weeks. It looks like we are no closer to solving the problem or preventing this from happening again. I just returned from a weekend at Texas World Speedway with CVAR. The only problem was big wallet sitting in Formula Ford with not much thinking. He clipped a formula Vee and went end over end with a roll for good measure. The "big cars" ran clean, and we talked specifically how to execute the start in the drivers meeting. No problems. 3 years ago we started a slow and painful process to bring our cars "in compliance" with the rules. The engines got smaller, more expensive and less reliable. But the lap times went down, and everyone seems to have a good safe time. Isn't that what Vintage racing is about? having a good time? Enjoying the cars? It is most definitely not about WINNING. If the blokes have to win, they should be running in a group that encourages winning. Coming in first place in a vintage race....who cares. Having a great time with good friends and good cars...now that is priceless. dan H. VMC driver for 10 years.

Guest		20-Sep-2005 02:31
retired racer, he said it was his first at RA, since the BRIC incident, not his first anyplace since the BRIC incident.

guest		19-Sep-2005 23:11
It is time for people to speak their minds and let vscda know how upset some of us are. Things are not changing for the better. I wish that svra would get a chance to run the BRIC. It would be much more organized and might make the track more money also. vscda should stick to little tracks with a smaller total of cars they can handle. It seemed to be a much smaller total of cars this past weekend from last year. I think the word is spreading.

Vintage Driver		19-Sep-2005 19:33
OK, so let me be sure I have this correct - as long as we start at 50 MPH, then all is well. It does not matter that the pack has not been formed up (people still swerving back and forth thru turn 12 - or later so the pack can not be formed) and there are significant gaps in the field. Yes, I was at Watkins Glen, as a SPECTATOR. Let me also understand that it does not matter if it was a VDCSA or SCCA Chief Steward (never announced as which; if the Chief Steward does not know what is going on - who does!!!! And as far as everyone being a volunteer, it will certainly make me feel better the next time there is a crash like this knowing we do not have professionals running the race event, but instead volunteers . . . .

retired racer		19-Sep-2005 16:18
Vintage Racer, YOU confuse me, you say the VSCDA event this past weekend is your first since the BRIC BUT then you tell what the SVRA did about starts at the Glen a week ago...If this is your first event since the BRIC how do you know what happened at Watkins Glen?? I might also add the Watkins Glen event might of been a much more quiet weekend just as the VSCDA weekend was without some of the faster cars that are also the ones that cause some of the drama. One might think YOU just have an ax to grind with the VSCDA!!

Guest		19-Sep-2005 16:08
I MUST contradict you as the "chief steward" was an SCCA official and NOT a VSCDA official, I also believe the SCCA official said "we want a 50-60 mph start), as for guys being "strung out" many times it is their own choice as was the case at the BRIC specifically in the group 6 race, some come to race and some come to tour (and MANY are just "in" over their head). In this past VSCDA R/A event the group 6 field (except for one lone yellow Mustang with what looked like a tire problem) was formed up quite well. PS: You might also remember that the VSCDA is a NON for profit "club" where members volunteer versus the SVRA which is a FOR profit business that pays employees to do a job. You might also remember MOST of the group 6 crashers anonymous club as BS Levy calls them are regulars on the SVRA circuit, some crashing over and over, again and again LONG before the SVRA slaps them on the wrist.

Vintage Driver		19-Sep-2005 14:39
I just returned from my first vintage race at Road America since the BRIC incident and I have some very serious concerns � nothing has changed. It appears that VSCDA, the race organization that ran this weekends event, and also ran the BRIC event, is taking a �See no evil� � Hear no evil � Speak no evil� approach to the BRIC incident. During the mandatory driver�s meeting, when nothing was said about starting procedures, several drivers asked questions about the starting procedures and the Chief Steward could not articulate what the starting procedures would be and even contradicted himself on what the procedures would be for the weekend. While there were no serious incidents during the start of the races this weekend, the starts were just as sloppy and dangerous as they were at the BRIC. The fields were not well formed and there were large gaps as the cars approached the starters stand. At the SVRA Watkins Glen event a few weeks ago, it was very obvious that SVRA had closely studied the BRIC incident and reviewed their procedures to ensure that an incident like the BRIC would be much less likely to happen. They also reviewed the SVRA starting procedures during the driver�s meeting, to make sure all drivers were on the same page. I am extremely concerned that VSCDA does not have a professional staff necessary to ensure a safe racing event. I do not believe they have the expertise to properly review a racing incident and follow thru with the appropriate changes necessary to reduce the risk of injury to drivers and the race cars they drive. P.S. I have specifically not put my name on the message, as it is also very clear that the �powers to be� within VSCDA are not above retaliation when the do not hear what they want to hear . . .

past racer		03-Sep-2005 03:25
My experience would say that the second row had laid back a little and tried to get a run on the front row only to get a late flag for the start. Then checked up and started a chain reaction. I am not blaming the flag for this either. The starter does and always will start the race. It was just something unexpected for the racers that day.

bob		03-Sep-2005 03:13
So how do we see this video that is floating around the net?

Brian Morrison		03-Sep-2005 02:08
>>>>

Guest		03-Sep-2005 02:07
Past Racer... I agree with you for the most part. But as you said, the second row checked up and to continue on with the debate we have to ask why did the second row even have to check up? What was the reason for that? Anyway, that is all I wanted to say! See you at the races.

past racer		03-Sep-2005 00:41
Ive raced and been around racing my whole life. I know many of the drivers involved in this wreck and I have seen the video also. One of the other factors, in my opinion, include the second row checking up on their brakes expecting a green flag. Which caused the according effect. Ray being in line, or where he was out of line, would still of been in a collision. Either with the car in front of him or the one next. Either way the same outcome. If the field had not checked up Ray would of been black flagged for being out of line and his race over. Another factor is the late flag. Its something most drivers have never experienced at Road America. In my days the flag usually droped about 100 feet before the start finish line. I may be wrong but this race it was dropped what looked like 40 feet from the line. Like Young Morrison said, "people are entitled to their opinions", and those are mine. I feel like the guest earlier has attacked Ray who I somewhat know. Many of the other drivers that were in the wreck have been on this site and not blamed him outright. I also feel Burt Levys article was real close. Also, Maybe there should be a no passing rule till after corner 2.

Brian Morrison		02-Sep-2005 17:35
"Guest" Your post is pointless (to me at least)...unless you want to let us know who YOU are and allow us to qualify your statement. Yes, I appreciate your opinion and you are entitled to it but just please know that there are more factors that played a part of it and unless you REALLY are closely involved it just seems like more poison. Which you are directly placing in the lap of one person, I think unfairly. You obviously know someone involved (or were involved yourself) otherwise you most likely would not have seen the video...Share with us your connection! Yes, "that dude" (are we 15) was out in the middle of the track, but if other things had happend the way they have always happened in the past it would have been a non issue..other than it is still vintage and that move was a little too much. As for the article I think that it was pretty on target!

Guest		02-Sep-2005 13:13
Out of curiosity what exactly are the "other contributing factors" that caused that dude Ray in the yellow Camaro to move to the center of the race track as the pace car pulled off (and stay there all the way up the hill to the start finish line)?? And to the poster that said the BS Levy story is TRUTH...Levy saying he "took a little peek" is like saying you made your girlfriend a "little pregnant" as that "peek" started as the pace car moved off the track and lasted all the way to the flag stand......The Levy story is pure public relations...

Brian Morrison #76		01-Sep-2005 16:38
I have not commented about this situation at all and will not likely after this. But!!! There have been a lot "outsiders" (that do not have the guts to post their names)reading this website and thinking that they "know" what happened or what caused it, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but there are many other factors than just one driver getting anxious at the start. Although it did not help. If you want to get 'the truth' and I mean a well written researched article about the accident, read Burt Levy's article in Classic Motorsprts. It will give you a fairly good idea of what happened! He actually spoke to some of the drivers and saw the footage, he did not give just one side of the situation. I feel that there are some changes that should be made to the group and know that they will be addressed, I just hope that it is not overboard. I hope to help make Group 6 an even more fun and safe group to run in, and of course I will be back. Just as soon as I can fix my car. ps. I can tell you that some of the comments directly below are not shared by some (many) of the drivers involved, including myself. I would have no issue racing side by side with 'that driver' any weekend. That is if I could catch him!!!

Mark Donohue!		01-Sep-2005 03:42
If there is video out there, let's see a link!!! This is some guy's personal photo gallery....what the hell does someone's name on a post have to do with it? signed, MARK DONOHUE

Matt Mulacek		01-Sep-2005 01:03
For the last Guest, who is too much of a coward to leave their name, you're very quick to point the finger. You should look at the video a little closer. There are a number of problems that caused this accident. If you read through this forum you will see.

Guest		31-Aug-2005 19:33
Guest 23-Aug-2005 23:45 The speculation can come to an end, as the in-car footage floating around quite-so-clearly identifies the culprit that started this sickening chain of events! The worst part...the over-aggressive bastard that stepped out of line, put his boot in-it BEFORE the pace car even pulled off the track - GOT AWAY WITH BARELY A SCRATCH! If the dude in the yellow Camaro (Ray) has not been castrated by his fellow competitors yet, he should, as well as getting his license yanked for the rest of his life! This was NOT a racing incident, as the race had not even started!

Dick Carlson		28-Aug-2005 17:20
For ME, who couldn't post his real name or email. At least Art Eastman has the professionalism to write under his own name. I've known Art a long time, and I'm sure he thoroughly researched his article. You, however - why should anyone listen to you. Dick Carlson

Guest		28-Aug-2005 01:46
Maybe I didn't read it close enough....where lies the problem?

me		27-Aug-2005 06:08
any one read the vintage motorsport page? Pretty sad reporting. Usually people research before they write. I cant stand half ass work..

Guest		24-Aug-2005 02:34
OH, please post a link or something!!!!

Guest		16-Aug-2005 20:15
Oh my!!!!! Now, THAT is funny!!!!!! Good work!

Tom Hazen		16-Aug-2005 03:26
You know you have arrived when... http://p075.ezboard.com/fpockitfrm2.showMessage?topicID=12212.topic ...your crash gets lampooned my slot car guys. And it's realistic!

Brad		16-Aug-2005 02:55
Like you say touring rules do get broken I am one who has, I remember many off's cars have had, I remember many cars scattering engines, and rememer the Taurus SHO crashing at the kink. It is hard to "police" speeds with 4 or 5 "pace" cars on a 4 mile track. A few years ago I was in a Ferrari GTO driven by Phil Hill, he told me and I believe we went close to 150 mph during the 50 mph touring. If you think passing in the corners and speeding doesn't happen you have not been on track in touring in the past few years.

Guest		15-Aug-2005 13:33
Actually, on the topic of touring, while I have difficulty envisioning a crash this outrageous during touring (of course, I'd have had trouble envisioning this large of a crash in a race also, had I not actually seen it), the fact of the mater is, touring does get a bit crazy from time to time. Over the years we've had cars that have crashed so hard (again, during touring) that they've had to be flat bedded off the track. I can recall a Ferrari and a Taurus (two separate incidents on different days) both losing control exiting the Carousel and going into the wall. Although there is supposed to be a speed limit, and there is to be no passing in the corners, rules get broken, and bad things happen.

Brad		13-Aug-2005 01:46
Well I have driven last year and for the last 8 years in my Miata, and every year do go over 50, and have gone over 100 into turn 5 every year, you only need to watch the starter bridge as they sometimes watch speeds there. I only stop on track the frist lap, and get about 5 to 6 laps in. you are correct about passing in corners though I don't do that, but do pass into the corner that is ok. Oh ya you are only going 50 doesn't work, that is the speed these guys where supposed to be going.

Guest		12-Aug-2005 02:33
Re: Big brakes and big motors.... You're right about that too!!! I agree with you about MY posts and where I said "usually". I hope you didn't think insinuate that it happens in "correct" vintage car races as often as it does at the BRIC. This isn't the first time that there was a "large" incident there, or with Group 6. And "bending" the rules vs "an extra 30-80 cubes" is like driving 90 mph in a 55 zone while everyone else is doing 60 mph. "But officer, everyone else is speeding!" Not being argumentive with you, I may be tweaking this "comment forum" into a "What is vintage racing and what is not" agenda. Thanks for posting and commenting.

guest		12-Aug-2005 02:00
Brad, are you mentally challenged. Touring is 50 mph with no passing. Usually there are so many people out there that your lucky if you see 50 in the straight. Last year I paid for touring and drove four laps in the hour and had to stop many times due to traffic and control of the pace cars. VERY SAFE.

Guest		11-Aug-2005 20:12
re: Big Motors/Big Brakes If you are going to use the word "USUALLY", how about this. "USUALLY" this does not happen. "USUALLY" the start goes off without a hitch. "USUALLY" wrecks are the result of a flat or blown motor. "USUALLY" their are people that bend the rules. "USUALLY" some cars are prepared better than others. "USUALLY birds fly and fish swim. But always, racers and/or race fans whine!

Brad		10-Aug-2005 00:29
What is going to be scary is when something like this happens during touring, then there will be more people hurt or god forbid killed. When you have old racecars some open wheel cars and new street cars hitting each other it will be scarry. And just at least the racers here know about flags, many of the people in touring do not. Hey I have been on track at the BRIC during touring while some jacka** was talking on his cell phone. If you think it won't or can't happen I bet you thought the same about this.

Guest		10-Aug-2005 00:08
Well, since its just comments on pictures and not necessarily a "forum"....here's another "take" on the "big motors/big brakes". Usually CHEATER cars are driven by guys that don't have the talent/ability to run up front with a LEGAL car!! Thus, they find ways to get up front without needing to be a better driver. Having 30-80 more horsepower at a place like RA makes a HUGE difference! My bet is that those "big brakes" weren't up to temp, all of the "backmarkers" jumped on them, locked them up, and SLAMMED into the pile ahead of them... Basically, in my opinion, these parts contributed to the wreck because the drivers didn't have the VINTAGE ATTITUDE. If they did, they'd have vintage brakes, and vintage motors. And if the same folks say, "Well a roller-cammed 347 is more reliable" they're just kidding themselves, and trying to convince others that its cheaper. Its not. HP costs money, and when it breaks, its costs even more to fix. Solid lifters and OEM cids is vintage racing. Its easy to blame the starter, but everyone should know that the STARTER controls the race, not the cars, not the guy with the most horsepower, not the thickest wallet, not the rarest car, etc. No racing till you see the green flag!

Guest		09-Aug-2005 17:02
Geez! Can any body tell me what big motors, big brakes or big wallets had to do with this very unfortunate incident. One thing about racers, thay always whine about what the other guy has or supposedly has. This was not an inverted field start. The "BIG MOTORS" are up front and pulling away (usually). The only way you are going to run over the guy in front of you is if he slows or you jump the start. Should that happen those "BIG BRAKES" will come in pretty handy! As for the "BIG WALLETS", they'll be needing those too! Where ever the blame lands, with the starter or with the front rows checking-up, this had absolutly nothing to do with how these cars are prepared. IT WAS HOW THE START WENT DOWN! There are many options to control starts. A limp green followed by a yellow or no passing before the flagstand or whatever. Some work, some don't.

Todd		09-Aug-2005 07:20
Very good opinions and testimonies here. The pictures are shocking and saddening, and I thank the Lord everyone made it out all right, too. I volunteered as a corner worker at Blackhawk twice, and my hats are off to RA's race staff. I wouldn't have known what to do first. What IS a good chatroom to complain about a thing or two in Vintage Racing? For years I've wondered what the heck kind of spec's some cars are prepared to, and how they get to race. To the fellow who mentioned the red XK120: Right on! After looking that car over I thought maybe it was a leftover from the SCCA June Sprints a month earlier! I mean, the car was built in the early '50s, for cryin' out loud. There are PLENTY of other cars out there, too that make me raise one eyebrow.

John		09-Aug-2005 01:15
Hi, I'm an Australian racer - can I ask why you guys stick with rolling starts? Most of the rest of the world have stationary starts, and this rarely happens.....

Guest		08-Aug-2005 23:20
Graphite body? Does that mean you can write with it?

Guest		08-Aug-2005 20:14
Re: the "tube frame and graphite body in picture 4" comment.... it's a Corvette - it's fiberglass. And the tube you're seeing is part of the roll cage.

Guest		07-Aug-2005 23:34
Uh, Dennis, apparently you weren't aware, but there was an almost identical accident the week before during the SCCA sprints. Not to mention the fact that tons of cars get torn up during SCCA races. Just watch the Nationals on TV. I'm not in SCCA and I drive vintage specifically because I think (my) vintage organization does a much better job of keeping me and my vehicle safe.

Guest		07-Aug-2005 23:14
Has anybody noticed the tube frame and graphite body in photo number 4?

Guest		07-Aug-2005 22:00
Lolas did a pretty good job of it in 1966....

Zippity		05-Aug-2005 21:56
How often did you ever see any other make of car in front of the McLaren's?? :) Love your photos. Can I print some off to hang on the wall of my local slot car track?

Guest		04-Aug-2005 22:14
There's now a DVD floating around the Chicagoland area with all the in-car footage assembled with driver names, grid position and so on to watch that race unfold before your eyes that afternoon... good viewing and explains a LOT! Very sad to see all that vintage sheet metal tangled up. Thank God nobody was seriously hurt and no fires.

guest		04-Aug-2005 06:17
I am going to paraphrase a comment from a famous racer in 1982: 'It was all that damned Coogan's fault'....... (A.J., Indy 500)

Guest		02-Aug-2005 13:21
Richard Yenko, there are no "poor guys" in vintage racing. If you can afford to go racing at all in any form, you are not poor.

Guest		02-Aug-2005 03:47
Guys, it is not really Braddock, it is some kid posting using a name in order to embarrass someone. Pay no attention to him and he will go away, or to bed, or something.

Guest		02-Aug-2005 01:48
Well said, Sir. SCCA is infamous for being 'rules nazis' as well as having a few people that are TOO aggressive. Blaming the track, the officials, or a lack of lights for some OVERLY AGGRESSIVE drivers (not necessarily ALL of them...) is a poor excuse for crashing vintage cars. The whole point of vintage racing is to preserve historic/vintage racecars in their natural element.. the racetrack. I guess a few people still believe in WRECKING vintage cars too, just so they can get to the front and get the $5 plastic trophy.

Dennis		02-Aug-2005 00:34
After wading thru all the comments and finger pointing I'm frankly amazed. I would like to state for the record that I am a long time SCCA member, have attended R/A events for over 20 years and really have to agree completely with Mike Engleke's comments and evaluation of the events. For those of you who disagree with the success that SCCA has had in running events at this track without incidents such as this one, maybe there's a reason for it. Perhaps their driver education requirements and enforcement of penaltys for stupid or overly aggressive driving actions make some sense in preventing situations like this. Rule #1, like it or not, is if you don't see a GREEN flag, you're not racing. If you have to step on the brakes because you didn't see a green then it sounds like you were already racing before the green....and apparently several rows back that's exactly what was going on because they were trying to keep up with the front rows. Stop blaming it on a track that has run thousands of succesful races over that past 50 years, the very well qualified officials like Mike. People were racing long before the green fell, and that's what started the whole mess. Tell me I'm wrong that if everyone waited until they actually SAW a green flag to put their foot into it there would have been an orderly start and not the carnage that resulted. The good news is nobody lost their life or was seriously hurt. The really bad news is that a lot of very expensive and rare race cars were mangled, some possibly beyond repair, and that a lot of people got to see racing at its worst. I don't know if there were fist fights or not, but if so that's even more outrageous. Why even race cars? Heck, everyone just meet on the front straight and bring your boxing gloves. Its incidents like this that make me appreciate SCCA and their approach to driver education, safety, and race orginization. I don't always agree with the way SCCA does everything but I'm glad, after seeing this incident, that they run races the way they do.

GM		01-Aug-2005 17:15
My lord, that has to be the most immature thing I've ever heard (read). What are you, 8? I think it's time for you to get back to whatever Play Station driving game that you're the self-proclaimed "King of the World" of and leave these type of discussions to the big people. I've tried to be respectful with my posts but in my estimation, and apparently others, that one isn't worthy of such respect. I'm with you Jim, as the "shark jump" killed Happy Days, so has Braddock killed this thread. Or as Popeye would say, "I've had alls I can standsk, I can't standsk no more, eck eck eck eck eck!"

E Wood		01-Aug-2005 00:01
Toly, I don't know of any video of the incident on the net. By the way, I used to watch you run the Morgan at Hallett in the 70's. Dad had a GP Alfa.

Christopher M.		31-Jul-2005 19:39
Jim, I agree with you. This has become rediculous...when idiots like d.w. braddock start posting stupid comments like that. This forum has lost its focus and purpose. Goodbye.

toly arutunoff		30-Jul-2005 21:25
didn't know about the big wreck until i read the mog +4 club newsletter--is it available as a movie somewhere?

Guest		30-Jul-2005 11:44
You would need to break up a few more Russian Submarines to supply two same equipped cars. Only way to get that much titanium at one time.

Jim Fay		30-Jul-2005 02:57
I believe this forum has jumped the shark. Good by.

d w braddock		30-Jul-2005 02:33
here's the challenge.............any of you guys....and i include the 50 yr old former drivers, the semi-pros, the fatass republicans, and the mouth off drunks in the stands...........bring out your wallets and put up or shut up..........supply 2 same equiped cars and i will beat you on any road track in america............period.......... i am not a pro........never have been a pro........i will beat you............

Chris		29-Jul-2005 19:07
It's great that everyone is bashing us vintage races. I'm 22 years old and I run SCCA-Pro and SVRA. I can tell you all that the guys that run "vintage" are every bit as good, and in some cases better than A LOT of us "PRO" guys. I'll run with vintage any day over pro. 1. Most all respect their cars more. 2. Most all respect their fellow drivers more. 3. Most of them are all ex-pro's or have been driving for 20+ years anyway. Those of you who think vintage is for inexperienced old fat rich guys who dont have any experience, dont know what you're talking about. If there wern't such ranks of "AMATURE" racing which we all do...there wouldnt be any pro's out there. Those of you who make such rediculous and spiteful comments calling them "idiots" and the such....I laugh in all of your faces.

GM		29-Jul-2005 16:26
I couldn't agree with you more in regard to people taking pot-shots at others while standing behind the cloak of anonymity. I find it hard enough to respect views from anybody that stoops to name-calling, but if you can't stand behind the garbage you're spewing by identifying yourself I'd rather you just SHUT THE H*** UP!! Bob B, I was driving in the Group 7 Can-Am qualifying session when I became aquainted with the wall. Greg M

Tom Hazen		29-Jul-2005 15:24
Apparently red-yellow-green lights have been in the plans at Elkhart for quite some time. This article http://www.cnmidwest.com/successstories/roadamerica.html dated 2001 is a marketing piece from ComNet Midwest, and contains a technical description of the fiber optic network they installed for the track at that time. It includes the following statement: "An added feature of the Viper II system in the future will allow race control to manipulate lights on the track, alerting drivers of existing track conditions while the race is underway. These lights, which will be operated from race control, function much like a standard traffic light with red, yellow, and green lights indicating different track conditions." George Bruggenthies is also quoted in the article, saying "We wanted to make a commitment to our future. Rather than spend our resources to maintain an out-of-date system, we wanted to build a highly functional and scalable network, and that was the plan that ComNet put before us." Perhaps now he will make good on that commitment and install these much-needed lights. Respectfully, Tom Hazen.

Richard Yenko		29-Jul-2005 15:13
It is too bad that so many of you folks have to hide behind the GUEST label to make a posting. There were "rich guys" and "poor guys" in that field. However, they virtually all had many racing laps under their belts and most of those at RA. If they want to risk their cars that is their business, not yours. Quit complaining about it if you don't do it. Richard Yenko

Guest		29-Jul-2005 15:12
Yeah, but it takes an even bigger idiot to NOT qualify up front, especially with 540 CID (or more!) especially at a track like Road America, where "horsepower rules". You don't have to have the utmost finesse and technique like a Donohue or someone.... Guys that "must be up front" in a VINTAGE car are guys that CAN'T run up front in SCCA, ALMS, etc.

guest		29-Jul-2005 13:36
Nice, is that the kind of elitism that makes the vintage group such an attraction?

guest		29-Jul-2005 10:12
There are some real idiots in here. First of all no one with out experience is going to qualify up front in a 50 car field. Most of these guys have been racing for 20 plus years. It sounds like it is you with out the experience to pussy foot around and let the front five rows go. And second, anything can be fixed for the right amount of money. That cobra will more then likelt be better then new when it comes back. And I bet it will be safer also. Idiots. Go to an AOL chat room if you have nothing smart to share.

chris gardner		29-Jul-2005 09:02
When you combine old guys rich guys, lack of experiance, expensive cars and 350 plus horsepower you are asking for trouble. I gave up racing with aggression, and now let the first 5 idiots go first. I remember the look on many of an accident victims face and it is always the look of inexperiance. Although I agree, it is hard to play it safe when gasoline, horsepower and age are part of the formula.

Guest		29-Jul-2005 01:15
That's a pretty valid point on the "that's racing" comment. On that note, I hope anybody that is shopping for a Cobra (now or in the future) will ALWAYS know that whatever CSX-XXXX chassis that was WRECKED was BENT BADLY. Lets just hope that its not "restored" like so many other "historic" cars. People need to face reality and that basically REBODYING a car does not constitute a REBUILD. Just because its has an original Shelby radiator cap doesn't mean you "saved" a car....

Guest		29-Jul-2005 00:11
Hey Guys, This Is Just A Part Of Racing! I Think Racing Should Be Left To Professionals, Not To Just Anybody With Enough Money To "BUY" Their Way Into An Event. It Appears To Me That Some Of These Guys Should Have Stayed At Home Or Watched From The Stands Instead Of Bringing Their "Mid-Life" Crises Cars To ANY Event. I Hope Everybody That Was Involved In The Accident Recovers Fully. As Far As The Crunched Classic Metal Goes, BIG DEAL, That's Racing! If You Can't Stand The Heat...

Bill		28-Jul-2005 21:03
Guest, those AC cobra's single over head roll bars sure seem to be more than enough to protect the driver if a car were to land full on top of it or incase it rolled over. GM, your a class act and I repect your request to stop asking for video but just so you know, it was not out of morbid curiosity that I requested it. Take care.

Bob B.		28-Jul-2005 20:33
GM, you weren't by chance driving a Lotus 23B in that accident, were you?

Zeero		28-Jul-2005 03:39
Interesting remarks. I raced SCCA back in the 1960s, then went Late Model stockcar racing and motorcycle racing (in other words, racing is not a foreign concept to me). This tremendous wreck comes under the heading of "fortunes of racing." As gentlemanly as we may wish to make it, racing remains a high-risk venture. And that's why we love it. If I were driving a million-dollar Cobra, a birdcage Maseratti, or even a $100,000 Corvette, I would think twice about racing it where other drivers actually wanted to WIN at any cost. But racing hormones being what they are, who can say they wouldn't nail the accelerator for a flying start with 600hp under their toe? I weep for the carnage in automotive metal. But we don't need to crucify anyone.

GM		27-Jul-2005 22:30
Dan, I can appreciate where you're coming from, at least to a certain degree. Firstly, I should know not to make such blanket statements. Obviously there are right reasons and wrong reasons for anyone wanting to view such a video. I was addressing those that may not have such honorable reasons for wanting to witness this horable event. As I stated, I have been involved in a pretty serious accident myself a few years ago, which involved extracation using the Jaws of Life, and a Flight for Life helicopter ride to Neenah Memorial Hospital. I would be HIGHLY disturbed if a video of my accident had surfaced and hit the WWW. That, is where I'm coming from!

Jeff Johnk		27-Jul-2005 22:23
I was at the BRIC, raced the BRIC, and saw the terrible pile up(my heart truely breaks for those caught up in it). On the drive home my wife and I discussed how long it would take every malcontent with a bone to pick about ANYTHING in vintage racing to find their soap box to preach from.... faster than the time it took for the accident to happen I see! While some of what I have read is offered by truly level headed folks and some of it most caring(many thanks to you folks), much of it is just garbage and I had refused to be apart of this until SVRA was pulled into it. How on GOD's green earth can SVRA be held up for review for anything related to this is beyond me. They did not sanction this event or have anything to do with it. The only thing I can think is that it IS because SVRA has some of the most well defined rules and regs that they now seemed to be on the examining table. God help us if a club as well run as SVRA by some of the finest folks in vintage racing now finds itself in a position to respond to something they didn't even sanction. How sorry we are if we force stand up folks like Jack Woehrle to take time they do not have to respond to such noise. Lets get something clear, it was not rules, regs, modifications, the flagger, VSCDA, SVRA, Road America or any other dumb thing that folks had dreamed up that triggered this accident... Hey the flagger was (at least in gruop Two)holding the green very late... as late as I can ever recall in ten years of racing RA and I DID NOT LIKE IT !!!! But because I did not like it is beside the point, it is my responsiblity as a driver to take the ever changing varibles that are thrown at me and make the best of them. Modifications had nothing to do with this. I can tell you that in my race later that afternoon and coming up to the green, at that moment, the thought occured to me that if something happened up front the exact same thing would play out with cars of 1/2 the HP and many on drum brakes. So what is it we want to have in vintage racing, a parade or a race? Racing is dangerous, even vintage racing and every driver must sign such a statment to such on entering any race. Understanding and accepting this, my prayer each and every time I take the track is for the saftey of those around me and for clarity of mind and judgement. Instead of pointing fingers lets discuss what did work, all the vintage mandated saftey gear for one thing. I still can not believe the injuries were so few and minor compared to the energy expended and NO FIRE! How about RA saftey crews and corner workers!?!?! Absolutley the best of the best and this was their finest hour!!! Enough good can not be said about these men and women, they always have and always will have my deepest admiration. Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. Ok folks, lets stop all the Monday morning quarterbacking and let some excellent people WHO ARE IN CHARGE AND NEVER WANT TO SEE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN do their work in reviewing what happen and what if anything needs to change. A speedy recovery to all involved. Respectfully, Jeff Johnk

Dan		27-Jul-2005 21:57
I am unable to understand the logic that would conclude that making a video available of this incident would somehow lack class, but making photos available of the same incident does not lack class. If you wish not to view a video, no one would force you to do so, but for the rest of us that did not witness the incident first hand, a video would help us to sort through all of the inconsistencies that have been posted here. If no one who possesses a video wishes to make it available, that is understandable and a right that must be respected. But to say that those of us who wish to see a video lack class is unfair. If all of the posts from those who where involved first hand had described the circumstances leading up to and during the incident were consistent, I would have little interest in seeing a video, but clearly there is little consensus on exactly what did happen. Surely there is no objection to allowing us to draw our own conclusions? To GM who said "(a video) only serves to placate others curiosity". Aren't we all a little curious as to what exactly did happen? Is that a fault? To Chris who said "Nobody should be gawking over someone's misfortuines and losses." Maybe so, but to assume that all of us have that intention is unfair. Some of us may actually want to understand this better. I am very sympathetic to the losses of all those involved; the owners/drivers of Group 6, the BRIC, and RA, all of whom suffered from this, and I sincerely hope that all will recover fully. In an effort to be constructive, I agree with the suggestion that in future Group 6 races at the BRIC that no passing should be allowed until after turn 1/2/3, take your pick. It is the only solution mentioned so far that I believe is workable, since it is enforceable because it is clearly evident when the rule is violated, it doesn't require RA to incur any expense, nor does it put the entire responsibility on RA to fix this, and it doesn't rely on drivers having to see through the red mist to do the right thing and it leaves no room for interpretation of best intentions. Dan - avid fan of motor racing, and RA spectator since 1979

Jim Fay #55 Group 6		27-Jul-2005 21:38
Human nature being what it is, some drivers and builders will push the rules and their driving styles as far as they are allowed by the powers to be. What if a sanctioning body like VSCDA where to start a 3 year program to bring group 6 back to it�s rules base. Year one, 2006: strictly enforce the motor and transmission rules and driving behavior. Year two: bring the tires and body mods into compliance. Year three: enforce the suspension and brake rules. After three years, make group 6 VSCDA cars legal to run in SVRA and most other sanctioning bodies around the country. The cars that wish to stay illegal can have the option to run in group one. Having said that keep in mind VSCDA allows you to run a big motor. When you declare it you are put in a designated group 6 class. Also keep in mind that flexible brake and motor rules allow alot of group 6 cars to run 2:35 to 2:45 times at Road America at an affordable cost. SVRA has its place and maybe VSCDA serves another purpose and a way for more drivers to participate. In the big picture shouldn't it be about a safe and enjoyable event?

Guest		27-Jul-2005 19:51
The man with his back to you in the picture of Cobra is the crew chief. If he is not objecting to the process, I guess none of us need to worry about it.

Guest		27-Jul-2005 19:26
NO

Guest		27-Jul-2005 18:59
Anyone care to comment of the removal of the Cobra? http://www.champweb.net/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=83&pos=67

guest		27-Jul-2005 17:25
I believe that most of us agree that the start of the Group 6 race was botched due to several contributing factors, but was primarily due to one underlying cause - the start went from being a rolling start to a flying start. In a rolling start, the starter has the ultimate authority to show the green flag at the start/finish line or make the field take another lap. (If you intend to show the green flag regardless of the field's disposition after the pace car has pulled off, you don't need a starter. Just an on/off switch for the green light!) BTW, I haven't seen a "late" green flag in 25+ years of SCCA racing, but it may have happened somewhere. (A late green would occur anytime that the front row has passed the start/finish before the green flag is shown to the rest of the field.) An SCCA starter (or a designated representative of the Chief Steward) always briefs just the front row drivers as to how the start will proceed, max speed approaching the line, etc. Everyone else behind the front row is expected to maintain position until they see the green flag. Typcially, the front row slows to a given speed as the pace car leaves the course to allow the field to close and re-form prior to the start/finish line. The intent is that no one starts racing until the green flag is shown. In a flying start, some, if not all, drivers are accelerating towards the start/finish line at racing speeds prior to the display of the green flag. Given the differences between cars and driver reaction times, this is inherently dangerous as drivers try to out drag the cars ahead, behinds, and next to them to the start/finish line. Given the limited overview of the field's dispostion at the crest of the hill by the start/finish line, this type of start is very dangerous at RA. Not to say that the SCCA has all the answers, but I suspect that standardizing the starting procedures for rolling starts and punishing drivers that attempt flying starts would go a long way in avoiding this type of carnage in the future. just my opinion of course. (YMMV!) - Gregory W. Smith, ODR-SCCA RE

Guest		27-Jul-2005 14:03
The best racing I ever saw at RA was about three years ago, when they had a race for the local stock cars, and trucks. Forget the trucks, their areo package was bad compared to the cars and they were out of contention. The cars were not exactly valuable, but a lot of effort went into the engines. You never knew what was going to happen. Almost none of the cars stayed on the track at turn 5. The front brake discs were very obviously red hot, even in daylight. The drivers seemed to be very young. No matter how screwed up the braking, the turn in, the apex, or the track out, or whether they were on the gravel or the grass, they had only one thing in mind, get up that hill and under that bridge as fast as they could. Trading paint? Bring it on. Tell me when those guys are going to be there and I will make the trip. If cars from Tarzana can get to where they are as exciting as the high school kids, that would be a good thing.

Guest		27-Jul-2005 01:41
If SVRA has a P&G meter, perhaps they should use it more often. Once a year hardly covers it....as long as its "racing", people will "cheat" (or, "circumvent the rules") You pick... CVAR, who is a member of the VMC (Vintage Motorsport Council) pays for an unbiased inspector to do "surprise" CID/camshaft checks at their events.

guest		26-Jul-2005 23:15
Why not just install a set of lights (green and red) about two hundred yards past the start/finish line and let race control start each race? The official starting line could be located near the lights and the finish line could remain where it is. This was not the first accident to occur at the start/finish line at RA. I just happend to be standing by the fence on the North side of the VIP tower and watched the accident unfold before my eyes. It was sad!

Jack Woehrle		26-Jul-2005 22:52
I had no intention of adding to this discussion until now. However, it appears that SVRA is again being referenced incorrectly. The following quote �After reading the SVRA rules, it becomes clear that this is Real Racing. Weight is set, but engine is free� is inaccurate Are there people who think the BRIC was an SVRA event? Certainly this is Real Racing as are SVRA and most other Vintage races. That was not always the case and isn�t everywhere now, but here we are in 2005 and that�s the way it is. There is no value in rehashing the �state of vintage racing�. The facts concerning the wreck have been revealed and discussed to the point where very little new information will surface. Dick Mooney has summarized everything accurately and made some well conceived conclusions. It only remains to see what the organizers will to at future events. The other subject that has come out of this discussion is that of car preparation and what the various Vintage organizations require or permit. SVRA is well known for publishing clear rules sheets for each make and model and enforcing the key specifications including displacement and weight on a continuing basis. You can find them at www.svra.com or I will send them to you. I don�t know of any other Vintage organization that uses scales at every event or even has a P&G meter, let alone knows what it is for. To say �engine is free� was read in the SVRA rules is absurd. Even the VSCDA and the BRIC rules state �Engine must be of manufacturer, type and displacement as close as possible to the original engine type and specifications�. I can find nowhere in writing that the specifications seen on these cars is permitted by anyone. It is strictly a matter of enforcing the written regulations and SVRA does that better than anyone. Please don�t misquote us. Jack Woehrle jwoesvra@aol.com

Guest		26-Jul-2005 20:34
Its not so much that the Mustang owner has someone's ear, it's my fear that I am going to watch the roof on my Camaro get crumpled into a mess by a nut with a crane some time. That "as seen on TV" method of moving damaged race cars is unacceptable in all but the most urgent circumstances (like someone under the car).

Dick Mooney		26-Jul-2005 20:20
Dick Mooney P9 I was in the fifth row directly behind Jerry Gollnick (black Corvette rdstr) when the accident occurred. Up to that point I thought the start was fairly normal. I had shifted into 3rd going up the hill. I could not see the flagstand yet because I had not crested the hill and because it was blocked by the cars in front of me. Also, I could not see what the front rows were doing -- all this is fairly normal -- the drivers, from probably the third row back, have to drive in accordance with the cars immediately around them not in accordance with the Flagger or the front rows. Someone can always miss a shift(very common) or have some unexpected mechanical failure to change the situation. The late flag in this case, the fact that no one except the front 1 or 2 rows knew we going to have a slow start, the spread out field racing to catch up, Ray Mulacek moving to the middle all compounded the problem that started when the front rows checked up forcing Ray to move over contacting Jerry and turning him into the wall. In reality, it was a true accident-- a series of seemingly unrelated events culminating in the worst possible way causing the final result -- a big multi car crash. Over the next 8 seconds I hit or was hit by 6 or 7 cars. Fortunately I did not even get a bruise or even a stiff neck which I have to credit to excellent safety equipment and a HANS device. I think you would also have to say that car safety preparation was excellent and the safety/emergency crews did a fabulous job. What we need to do now is basically unravel this incident from the inside out and have the respective parties and organizations make the changes necessary to minimize the chance for a repeat. I would like to see the following: 1. Some basic written rules on rolling starts. Something like: stay in line, maintain your interval,and don't start until the flag drops. If you cannot see the flag you have to drive according to the cars around you. The passing driver is still responsible for making a safe pass. 2. Any variation to (1) must be communicated to all drivers -- no exceptions. 3. Hesitation starts, hanging back to open a gap, moving to the middle should result in a black flag and maybe out for the weekend or more. 4. The field should be caught up with the pace car -- There are plenty of communications in place now at every track to insure this. The corner workers can see the condition of the field and report it. 5. VSCDA should adopt and enforce more stringent car preparation rules. This event is becoming the "formula libre" event --especially in group 6. This fact, along with the mental attitude that accompanies it, creates an even more dangerous situation. Read Jack Woerles and Jerry Gollnicks comments. This is not enhancing the reputation of this event. My feeling is that adopting more specific rules and enforcing them woud greatly enhance this event, attract more cars and more spectators. Maybe it would become sort of a defacto "National Championship" event!! It also would not be that expensive or difficult to do. In summary -- lets learn from our mistakes, make the necessary changes, and move on.

Guest		26-Jul-2005 20:01
After reading the SVRA rules, it becomes clear that this is Real Racing. Weight is set, but engine is free. The fact that the cars appear the way we dream they used to look is similiar to the way those Winged Outlaw Dirt Oval Cars look. This is really nifty. Might even be able to do a sucker car for a while.

Guest		26-Jul-2005 19:58
Regarding the orange Mustang being lifted by its roof. The owner tells folks he's the largest single stockholder in Road America (and he indeed may be)... so, he knows where to complain to. ;)

Ron O'Connor		26-Jul-2005 19:09
Iwas dissapointed that my Gr 6 Corvette wasn't ready for the BRIC, having run with this group for 20 years, so my sympathes go to my fellow racers in a most heartfelt way. Not knowing the facts of the incident and only reading the posts here leads me to suggest to the race organizers that 1. The field be informed of a pace lap speed, preferably a slow one so the field can stay together back in the pack. 2. a communication system be adopted that gives those in back needed info on the status of the start. 3.That the starterstart the race no matter howe line-up looks. What does it matter that the field isn't "tight" as was attributed to an official saying who was involved in the start. This isn't an F1 event where one finishes matters to anyone. Unfortunately, it does matter too much to some racers. With the "bad luck" that Gr. 6 has had at RA, crashes due to oil at s SVRA in 2004, an incident at the BRIC last year allowing only two or so race laps to run, and now this misfortune. we all need to be cool and make some reforms. Ron OConnor

Guest		26-Jul-2005 16:55
Can anyone explain why the clean up crews insist on doing this? http://www.champweb.net/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=83&pos=64 I have seen photos of this type of clean up before and I am floored every time. Isn't it bad enough that this guy has to fix the whole front clip on this car? Now he has to redo the roof too? It is purely adding insult to injuy. This car was not sitting on top of another car. It could easily have been flatbedded. I can only assume that driver was off receiving medical treatment when the tow truck "finished the job" on this car.

GM		26-Jul-2005 16:24
Thanks, Chris, for articulating my sentiments. I too have been victim of Road America's unforgiving concrete walls, due to suspension failure, (It's still my favorite track though) and I can certainly concur that it's not something easily forgotten. To have such misfortunune relived through a video, that only serves to placate others curiosity, is, as you very well put it, lacking in class. If such a video hits the web at this point it will only serve to start the finger-pointing and blaming all over again. I can assure you that race organizers will come up with all the evidence, if they haven't already, to make the appropriate changes deemed neccessary from their viewpoint. The biggest changes come from within the ranks of us (we?) competitors, and we certainly don't need a video to tell us that from here on out, race starts, particularly at RA, deserve a large dose of respect! Mr. Dobson, thet last thing I want to do with this, or any other forum, is to create confrontation, but I have to question how you can come up with such a statement as, "Seeing how this kind of Vintage Racing is really only demonstrative". Where have you been racing? I think I'm safe in saying that only a VERY minor percentage of current vintage racers view what we do as "demonstrative". Not even in my local clubs, Nostalgia and RMVR, which currently have no spectator events, is there such a feeling. We ARE racing! And as to the roll cage comment.........tell those gentleman on the bottom of that pile, or those buckled into their seats as another car came barreling into them broadside (which I witnessed) that their roll cages are a "joke". I'm sorry sir, but you are waaaaaayy off base.

guest		26-Jul-2005 14:36
...sounds to me (and photos posted here support)that all of the cages functioned perfectly, as evidenced by the survival of all involved ... hardly a 'joke'.

Chris		26-Jul-2005 14:29
I hope all of you that request to see a video stop asking. I have been involved in a few racing accidents in my time(SVRA,SCCA-Pro,and even 2 Brian Redman events), and I can tell you that it's something that no race driver wants to relive or even witness. Those of you who wish to ohhh and awww over a video need to go elsewhere. I'm sure those involved whom wish to investigate the cause will do so elsewhere and not on this forum. Nobody should be gawking over someone's misfortuines and losses. I can tell you first hand that getting over and incident like this is not easy (emotionally and $$$). Lets show a little class, and a little sympathy and try and learn from all of this

Guest		25-Jul-2005 21:51
Bill Dodson, where do I look at these pictures to see these roll cages that are such a joke? Ask Ed Jensen if his roll cage is a joke then ask to see a picture of his driver side door. You don't know what your talking about, stop posting.

Bill Dodson		25-Jul-2005 21:18
GM, I think most people would like to see video of the accident so as to disect it from a technical point of view. Also, I believe it would only be "morbid" if someone was killed (Thank God all involved were relatively OK). Seeing how this kind of Vintage Racing is really only demonstrative (most of the roll cages are a joke which are evident in the pictures) and purely to recreate the sights and sounds from an era gone by , I myself am curious to see exactly how/why this happened. We could all learn from this to avoid future incidents, lest insurance regulations regulate our beloved hobby out of existance.

GM		25-Jul-2005 19:39
I'm curious as to why there have been several posts regarding the desire to aquire video of the event. Are those requesting such a video doing so because they were involved in the accident, or just out of morbid curiousity. If it's the later, I have to say that I find that pretty twisted. I witnessed it from a vantage point a mere 40' from where it happened. Gotta tell you that I wish I hadn't! As for whomever just posted the request for the video that's apparently available in the Milwaukee Journal...........buy it yourself!!

guest		25-Jul-2005 16:43
where are the videos? someone is selling one in the milwaukee journal. who is going to buy it and put it online for us

Guest		25-Jul-2005 03:04
Along with many others who have posted, I was at RA when the incident occured. In fact, I was in the Group 8 race immediately following Group 6. It is clear to me that no ONE factor caused the mishap. No doubt overexuberance on the part of some participants and the "hill" were contributing factors. I must disagree with those who believe that vintage racing shouldn't be about winning. I chose vintage over SCCA because I like the old cars, because I can race with less expense due to the rules, and because I didn't want to repair bodywork every other weekend. But I am there to compete, not parade around the track!

Richard McDonell		24-Jul-2005 23:13
Can you take a suggestion from an outsider? I haven't raced on a road course since the early 70s, but I did spend 6 years in the 90s running open-wheel modifieds on ovals. On a typical (1/2 mile) oval, if the starter doesn't like the look of the field as it approaches his station, he simply waves off the start, and everyone does one more (at least) pace lap. The starter can pretty clearly signal to the drivers what it is he doesn't like - not close enough, not side by side, or whatever. That's easy on a half-mile but not so practical on a 4+ mile road course. So my question is, would it be reasonable to have a "starter's assistant" a the final turn; someone in radio contact with the starter to advise him if the pack is ready, and more imprtantly, with the authority to wave off a sloppy start before everyone gets their foot deep in the throttle? It seems to me that there never should have been a green flag in this case, and probably wouldn't have been one if the starter had any advance idea of the unruly mob that was approaching him. Takecare next time guys. Cheers,

tim turner		24-Jul-2005 02:17
I believe there are many issues to address, but my concern is about the "race". I have done rescue for 21 years, have been a city firegighter/ paramedic for over 18 years and been a crew member for 17 years. I have done rescue at more tracks than I care to count. I have seen my driver make moves that made me shake my head. The point is that it doesn't matter if we as a group are turning wrenches, driving or working, we want to bring ourselves and our hardware home. But we would like to do it the fastest. If not that, then why are we running? Those of us that are highly motivated want to win that "race" whenever possible. We don't want to win at the expense of others, however. But finishing 12th in class is not a lot of fun. The driver wouldn't like it and I wouldn't want to spend that much time to not do well. I have worked and been at some horrific crashes on starts that included Formula 1, CART, Indy Lights, Pro Formula Atlantic, Trans-Am, the Runoffs...you name it. To pick out one or two drivers or one class is a mistake. Many people with a great number of racing laps have had a problem. I believe that the only way we can all race together well is to be on the same page on the pace lap and let the chips fall where they may. If you have a comment, email me at raceduck84@yahoo.com

Guest		24-Jul-2005 00:33
A few more thoughts. People thinking the drivers were racing before the start have, again, never participated in a race to understand what is happening. When the drivers in the back, or in this case mid pack, have not caught the field behind the pace car they have to go as fast as they can to catch up. This is not "racing". Every one in the field pays the same fee to enter the race. They all want a chance at a fair start in a controlled field. Was it "racing" when cars around row 4/5 popped out of line? Every been on the freeway when people in front of you check up and someone pops out of line to avoid hitting the car in front of them? A row 2 driver said he had to put his brakes on and check up. Obviously he had a different expectation about how the start was being handled than did the front row or the official who only told the front row how to do the start. I do not race vintage/historic (yet), but I hope the people who do race with these organizations will demand for changes to reduce the likelihood of something like this happening again. Keith Watson

JOhn Hamilton		24-Jul-2005 00:02
I am new to Vintage racing, just having completed my 4 race weekends with CVAR. I'm glad no one was seriously injured, although the sight of so many beautiful cars wrecked is catastrophic by itself. CVAR stresses the "fun and safe" aspects of Vintage racing as opposed to "win at all costs", which suits me just fine, considering the costs involved in restoring and maintaining a race car. I simply can't afford to replace my car due to overly aggressive drivers making mistakes or taking chances. I would also be horrified if I were to cause another racer to bend his car, since I can't afford to replace his car, either. For me, it all boils down to attitude... protect the other racers and the race cars above all else. Good luck to all of the racers who are now building or rebuilding after this incident, I hope to see you on the track in the future. Remember, check the attitude! JohnHamilton68@aol.com

Tim		23-Jul-2005 18:59
I have been traveling to events at Road America since 1983. This was the worst incident that I have seen at this track. I was also at the event this past May when a driver had to be air-lifted to a hospital from turn 11. I am happy to hear that no one was seriously hurt in this huge crash. For this race I was in between turn 14 and the hill at the start of this race. From what I saw, the pace car pulled off of the track and onto pit lane directly in front of me. It appeared to be going at the speed that the other posts had mentioned, of around 55 mph. The leaders appeared not to change their as they climed the hill. As the rest of the field was coming past my position, I would have to say that their speed was a bit higher. I would have to say that from 2/3 to the back of the pack was moving at a much higher speed. As the end of the field was going up the hill and under the pedestrian bridge, I saw the White Mustang's #71 brake lights comming on. At the same time I saw the flag station under the same bridge throw the red flag. I could see the dust cloud further down the strait and I went to take a look. After reading the other posts here and from what I saw. (1) I feel that if the pace car could start gathering the cars up at the "Kink" which would be turn 11. This would give a good long stretch to Canada Corner and all the way to pit lane for the drivers to have a good line up. That way the back markers would not be trying to play catch up as they head up the hill to the blind start strait. (2) There should also be some sort of communication from either corners 13A or 14 back to the race officials as to the line up of the cars. (3) If there were a set of lights that would be controled by the corner worker at the pedestrian bridge, Lets say 3 lights of each color; red,yellow and green. That would be very easy for the drivers to see as they are comming up the hill. That worker could be contacted by the start tower to go from yellow to a green start if all is well with the group. If that station saw a problem between the bridge and the start line the light could be switched to yellow or red if need be. That position near the bridge is a very tough place for a flag to be seen. Since the drivers are concentrating on the cars in front of them. Not on a flag station of track to the right. If some of this were put into place it may make for a safer start. It was a total shame that this happened to so many great cars and very good people. There is always next year and Hopfully things are learned from this event and thing are changed for the better.

Roger Corby		23-Jul-2005 02:44
Does anyone think that this incident would have been as serious as it was if drivers coming up the hill on the SF straight could see ahead of them? It seems obvious to me, and yet I've read only one or two comments about this. The "accordion effect" is always a potential problem in a large field, but you hardly ever see cars stacked 3 high like in the BRIC pileup. That's because if somebody (drivers OR officials) screws up, backmarkers usually can begin evasive action before they get to the problem area. Not so at RA.

Bill Sherman		23-Jul-2005 01:47
A very sad experience and I'm thankful there were so few injuries. Opinions seem very hot and very varied, so I will avoid all of those. The potential for this to happen always exists and this time, it did. I see Jack Woerhle and others are complaining that one factor is the lack of uniformity between racing sanctioning groups. Some race, some don't, some are tight on rules, some use them to start BBQs. There seems to be a cry for a national consistency. <